Inflection Point: US House Majority Whip James Clyburn on Race, Police, and the Pandemic

Congressman James Clyburn

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Female : Welcome to Conversations on Health Care with Mark Masselli and
Margaret Flinter, a show where we speak to the top thought leaders
in health innovation, health policy, care delivery, and the great minds
who are shaping the hea lthcare of the future.

This week Mark and Margaret speak with House Majority Whip
Congressman James Clyburn, third ranking democrat in Congress, and
Chair of the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus crisis.
Congressman Clyburn a long time activist for Civil Right s talks about
the current climate of dramatic change, the need for cohesive federal
policy to contain the pandemic, and the momentum currently at play
behind transforming America’s policing strategies in the wake of
George Floyd’s murder.

Lori Robertson al so checks in, Managing Editor of F act C heck.org looks
at misstatements spoken about health policy in the public domain,
separating the fake from the facts . We end with a bright idea that's
improving health and well being in everyday lives. If you have
comme nts, please e - mail us at [email protected] or find us on
Facebook , Twitter , or wherever you listen to podcast s . You can also
hear us by asking Alexa to play the program. Now stay tuned for our
interview with U . S . H ouse Majority Whip James Clyburn here on
Conversations on Health Care.

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Mark Masselli: We're speaking today with House Majority Whip, South Carolina
Congressman James Clyburn the third ranking Democrat in the U . S .
House of Representatives. Congressm an Clyburn was elected in 1993,
serving as C hairman of the Congressional Black Caucus and also Chair
of the House Democratic Caucus . He currently serves as chair of the
House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus crisis .

Margaret Flinter: A lifelong Civil Rights activist Congressman Clyburn wr ote a memoir of
his life's work, Blessed Experiences: Genuinely Southern, Proudly
Black . It ’ s hailed as a primer for anyone considering going into public
t h
service. We note that the Congressman was also this show’s 500
guest on our 10th anniversary last year. Congressman Clyburn ,
welcome back to Conversations on Health Care.

James Clyburn: Tha nk you very much for having me.

Mark Masselli: Oh, it is great to have you back to o Congressman . We last spoke, as
Margaret said about a year ago , and I think it's fair to say that
everything has changed in our world. We're in the deep throes of a
triple pandemic . COVID - 19 has gripped the world global health crisis
that has also created unprecedented economic crisis. On the heels o f
those two realities , the brutal police killing of George Floyd and many

Congressman James Clyburn

others has sparked protests and revolts. I'm wondering, as one of our
preeminent statesmen who's fought in the Civil Rights Movement
throughout your career, if you could describe thi s time in maybe ways
that people can navigate through them.

James Clyburn: We are at an inflection point in this great country. I've been talking a
lot about who and what we are as a nation. We all grew up pledging
allegiance to the Flag of Liberty and Jus tice for All. All of us are aware
that that's a vision . The writers of the constitutional principles by
which this country was built made it very clear that every effort that
we would undertake will be in pursuit of a more perfect union. In fact,
I don't t hink we've ever pursue d it without a lot of fits and st art s.

All of a sudden now it seems as if the majority of the American people
seem to be saying, it is time for us to make a serious effort toward
that more perfect union to deliver liberty and justice for all. H av ing
been there in the 60s , s aw some idea the day John Lewis and I met
back in October 1960 and spending time with him in the Congress . W e
often talk about our c hallenges back in the 60s and compare them to
what's going on now. If I get a chance to talk to John this week, I'm
going to ask him that question that you just asked me. I would get
some interesting reactions from him.

Margaret Flinter: If COVID - 19 has done anything it has certainly clarified the depth of
racial injustice and inequity en trenched within the American
healthcare system . People of color have been far more likely to
contract the c oronavirus , three times more likely to die from it. We
have the highest COVID death count in the world a 120,000
Americans, and we don't see an end i n sight to that yet. Despite all of
this the administration has publicly boasted about scaling back testing
to make the numbers look good. You wrote a letter this week to the
Vice President Pence, to HHS Secretary Azar, and CDC Director
Redfie ld, and ask ed them to clarify why they would do this. What is it
that you're seeking from the administration in response?

James Clyburn: If you recall within hours of him making the statement much of his
staff , the spokespeople , were saying he was only joking. That to me
was serious enough to be joking about something like this . B ut then
he pushed back on his saying he meant what he said, it was not a
joke. If it w ere not a joke then we really need to get an explanation ,
b ecause the fact of the matter is we know that in order for us to
harness this pandemic, if we're going to bring this under control, we
got to identify where it is , so that we can do the isolation that is
necessary and so that we can have the treatment that is necessary.

If you don't test you'll never be able to get the information that you
need to deal with it. T hat letter is saying to the Vice Presid ent, since
he was put in charge, explain to us exactly what you're talking about,
because we're appropriated monies over $2 trillion already, the

Congressman James Clyburn

HEROES Act . W e know from the Chairman of Fed Chairman Powell
said that $ 3 trillion may not be enough. We don't know how much the
American people are going to sacrifice on this, but I think i t’ s a big
enough number for us to get some serious answers to the se rious
is sues that we a re facing.

Mark Masselli: You know Congressman, you've been a long proponent of expanding
the growth of community health centers in this country , really is a
way to address some of the entrenched racial disparities in the health
care system h ere. Now, we're seeing millions of Americans who've
lost their jobs and subsequently their health care and we see this
greater potential for community health centers to fill a gap . A lso the
c orona virus has led to this incredible and dramatic increase on th e
use of telehealth.

I know you have created a congressional task force to expand
broadband access across rural parts of the country so that more
Ameri cans can take advantage of this to, in essence , make this a
public utility , if you will, to make it avail able to everyone. I'm
wondering if you could talk about the work of the task force how
you'd like to see vulnerable Americans gain access both in urban and
rural comm unities to these vital services. I now also the reason that
you're doing this is because t here still exists a digital divide in our
country between the haves and the have - nots , and they simply won't
be able to access thi s important telehealth service.

James Clyburn: Absolutely. If there is anything to be exposed it has been our health
care deli very system. Many of us ha s been talking about it for a long,
long time. In fact, Martin Luther King Jr. b ack in 1966 called attention
to the fact the wor se i nequality to exist is the unequal treatment in
health care. We have to now get serious about how a re we going to
deliver health care to everybody. I've been saying for some time now
that we've got to make the greatness of this country. Our health care
system is a great system, but we got to make it accessible and
affordable to everybody.

Now, there's o nly one way to do that in my opinion, is for us to build
out broadband in this country because we're not going to deliver
health care efficiently and effectively w ithout telehealth . You’re not
going to be able to educate our children adequately without onl ine
learning. We've already experienced a half year of school loss by a lot
of our young people and what s o , to me , onus about that is the fact
that the s chools continue d to provide online learning. Those with
access to internet continued to learn. Those w ho did not dropped off
the scene so to speak.

Here in South Carolina, thousands of children did not have any
contact with their teachers or any kind of educational pursuit during
this three - month period. Now, we are about to go into another school

Congressman James Clyburn

year . Ma ny of those students have not test out and so therefore the
proficiency required to go to the next school year , they're not going to
get it and so they are going to be left behind. What's going to happen
to those kids ? T hey'll be two years behind, and we k now what that's
going to lead to. Broadband deployment is a must , if you ’re going to
have good healthcare, if you're going to have adequ ate education for
our children.

Margaret Flinter: Well, Congressman Clyburn there's another firestorm raging across
the country right alongside that , that’s been ignited by the recent
p olice killing of George Floyd. You yourself have marched for equality
and civil rights for decades but you've said that this time something is
different and that in the past Americans talked at and over each other
on matters of race. But now , maybe people are actually talking to
each other on this issue that has framed so much of the American
story since the first pillars of our nation were hammered into place
that gave rise to this entrenched racism that we see today. What gives
you hope that this might be the time for real change at last?

James Clyburn: All of this is going on, as we've been commemorating a lot of
interesting things . One of which is the final day of slavery for African -
Americ ans in this country. June teenth came about as a result of
General Grange ’ s entrance into Texas to let the slaves know that they
were free. That was June 19 , 1865 further months after the
Emancipation Proclamation came into effect . Also , this past week we
c ommemorate the fifth anniversary of those poor souls who lost their
lives in the basement of Emanuel AME Church . All of a sudden now I
see Senator Mitt Romney marching in the streets of Washington, DC
and mouthing the words , I'm here to make it know that B lack Lives
Matter .

None of us , I don't think there's a single soul who would have thought
two years ago, they would see that phrase become a rallying cry, not
just across America but around the world. I think this mentioned , and
that's what it was , of Geor ge Floyd I think that opened a lot of
people's eyes. When you see it one picture is worth a 1000 words ,
that picture spoke loud enough. That's why I have been saying we
cannot allow this effort to get hijacked the way the effort back in the
60s got hijacke d. That is one thing John Lewis and I have talked about
a lot. We were founding members of the Student Nonviolent
Coordinating Committee , w e talked about often as to how that got
hijacked.

We woke up one morning after doing great work all of a sudden burn
baby burn in all the headlines frighten ed people away. This time
someone is trying that again with Defund the Police . Nobody wants to
defund the police. What we want to do is bring attention to the fact
that we need to reform polic e and we got to reimagine what policing

Congressman James Clyburn

is all about. We got to get away from the slave patrols which gave rise
to what we now call policing. I think people are beginning to talk to
each other, talk with each other, walk hand in hand together, giving
great meaning to that motto th at we use E Pluribus Unum , out of
many one.

Mark Masselli: We're speaking today with House Majority Whip South Carolina
Congressman James Clyburn. He served as C hairman of the
Congressional Black Caucus and is C hair of the House Democratic
Caucus. I want t o , Congressman , put the issue of police brutality in
the country in larger context. You mentioned Juneteenth , but we just
recently saw the President who initially had scheduled a rally in Tulsa,
Oklahoma on that day moved it to the day after , as you know , Tulsa
was the site of th e bloodiest massacre of African - Americans in a single
day.

In the midst of all that the President signed an executive order on
police reform . It seemed like it was co - opting a bill that a number of
your colleagues in the Congression al Black Caucus had been working
on for years . Y ou say the executive order though falls short of
delivering on the full intent of the House Bill. I'm wondering if you
could just illuminate f or our listeners what the House Bill was seeking
to achieve, and w here do you think we are in terms of seeing a more
robust legislative action around police reform?

James Clyburn: Well, thanks for bringing that bill up . We ’ re going back to Washington
and we ’ re going to vote on this bill and we ’ re going to pass it. Now
th e Senate is going to vote on a version of police reform that I think
falls sho r t. Nobody's paying much attention to the President's
executive order. It is miserably short of anything that anybody wants
to deal with. Hopefully, we can find some common groun d. Now
when you pass in legislation, the House of Representatives is one
third of the equation. The Senate is the second third . The White
House is the third - third. Now if you got one third of the equation, and
two thirds, you ’ve got to negotiate with. It s imply means we by
definition will not get everything they've got in this bill. But hopefully
we can get enough support from the American people to speak to the
Senate and to make this President aware of the fact that he's just
signed something o ther than a n executive order if you're going to
have legislation to outlaw t he chokehold, you can't say we
encourage d you t o outlaw it. W e need to outlaw the cho kehold. We
need to outlaw no not [ inaudible 00:15:32] . We need to chang e the
law on qualified immunity. We need to de - militarize our police.

Now you t a k e a person like Hank Johnson , ever since he got t o
Congress over 10 years ago he has been crying that we need to de -
militarize the police. He's had legislation to do that. Hakeem Jeffries
had legislat ion to get rid of the chokehold. Senator Richmond has

Congressman James Clyburn

been working on qualified immunity issues. All these things have been
out there for a long time, you've now wrapped them into one piece of
legislation. If you look at this piece of legislation, you will get a pre tty
good idea of some of the things the Black Caucus have been wo rking
on for the last 20 years.

Margaret Flinter: Well, Congressman, in the community health center world, we ’ve
really focus ed on health equity and try and train both our current
clinicians and teams, but also the next generation that we train.
There's an effort to really incorporate the social determinants of
health into how we deliver primary care. One of the loudest cries
that's come forward after George Floyd's murder has been to de fund
t he police as you ’ve said . But some people say what this really means
is take money that we use to train police officer and militarized tactics
and move some of that money to address the social challenges that
impact communities of color th en certainly cont ributes to the
discrepancies we see in health outcomes. But h ow do you envision
reallocating those police resources to be better used, maybe more
upstream or used by other people with different kinds of training ?

James Clyburn: I would like very much for u s to analyze these police budgets and see
what requests have been made over time. For instance, I can
remember when we decided to close down all of our mental
institutions , a lot of police budgets were increased in order to deal
with that issue. They ought not be dealing with mental health issues .
T he social work agencies should have gotten that increase in funding,
and that's what we need to do now. The same thing goes with
homelessness . Most people are going to jail for a lot of them being
homeless so tha t's a part of the policing budget that needs to be
redirected.

Drug a ddiction is an illness we say it's an illness, but then we keep
treating it with the c riminal codes . We need to rip all that money out
of policing, and put it in the appropriate agencies. We've got these
agencies, they are be ing underfunded while we a re increasing funding
to police , so t o me that's what we need to do. I say to all my friends,
that’s not defunding the police, t hat's reforming the police. We ought
not use these terms that we know will incite people. We ought to
keep saying what we mean. I always say in this business, if you explain
it you're losing. If you've got to explain what you mean, you 're going
to lose the argument.

Mark Masselli: Well, clarity really matters in these times . I was just trying to pick up
on some of the threads you were talking about. We've got this
presidential election year upon us six months away or less. We're
heading into the summer with a number of c oronavirus hotspots
growing potential come the fal l and perhaps the second wave. We
have appropriate protest going on around the country. We still have

Congressman James Clyburn

inadequate testing, contact tracing, public health support . I know
you're at the center of so much of these conversations as a chair of
the House Select C ommittee on Coronavirus. I know you have some
strong thoughts about the resourc es that we need to deploy there. I
would like to hear a little bit about that but really because you believe
in clarity, what do we think what should Americans expect to see
acc omplished over the next couple of months b ecause as that
presidential season comes the legislative days seem to shrink and
they go by very quickly . Yet our country is -- [Crosstalk]

James Clyburn: I am very glad that you asked that question. I'm glad that you frame d
it the way you did because until several days ago I really thought that
we were going to get to a point very soon when this virus would be
under control, and we would be able to get to a new normal rather
quickly. I don't think that today. I fee l very strongly today that COVID -
19 is with us for a while. We are not going to get this under control
until there's national leadership that hit nits w hat it is that we are
dealing with , that we'll sit down and do a coordinated approach that
covers all 50 states and plus the territories so that we can have a
national approach to this issue. There's not one single part of the
United States of America that's not been touched by COVID - 19 and
we're not going to resolve this until we have a national
comprehensi ve approach to testing , contract tracing, isolation, and
treatment.

Let me say this as a full warning, hav ing been one to remember the
debate over the polio vaccine. I was around when there was a big
argument as to who got what vaccine. A lot of people rem ember
Jonas Salk , h e was first with the vaccine . B ut then along came Albert
Sabin who came up with a better vaccine on two fronts. Jonas Salk
required a shot. People were afraid of needles . Alb ert Sabin, a little
drop of serum on a lump of sugar. Now, gues s who got the drop of
serum on the lump of sugar and who got the shots? Well, I remember
that debate. That's part of what I'm preparing my subcommittee for
right now .

I f there is a vaccine and which would it be , b ecause we’d probably
have more than one va ccine, you've got what 19 countries trying to
develop vaccine s? There could very well be two or three vaccines
coming up right around the same time and some will be more favored
over the other one . W e've got to look at three words when we deal
with this CO VID - 19 , efficiency, effectiveness, and equity , t hose three
words . A re we going to spend this money efficiently ? A re we going to
spend effectively ? W ill we spend it equitably ? T hat to me is what we
need to work on.

Margaret Flinter: We've been speaking toda y with House Majority Whip Congressman
Clyburn, the third ranking d emocrat in the U . S . House of

Congressman James Clyburn

Representatives. You can learn more about his important work
advancing civil rights by going to clyburn.house.gov or follow him on
Twitter @WhipClyburn . Congres sman , we want to thank you so much
for your lifelong commitment to service to the public to your
dedication to advancing Civil Rights and for joining us once again on
Conversations on Health Care.

James Clyburn: Thank you very much for having me.

[ Music ]

M ark Masselli: At Conversations on Health Care we want our audience to be truly in
the know when it comes to the facts about health care reform and
policy. Lori Robertson is an award winning journalist and Managing
Editor of FactCheck.org, a nonpartisan, no nprofit consumer advocate
for voters that aim to reduce the level of deception in U.S. politics.
Lori, what have you got for us this week?

Lori Robertson: Does vitamin D help protect against COVID - 19 ? Some scientists have
hypothesized vitamin D might be he lpful, but there is no direct
evidence that vitamin D can prevent COVID - 19 or lessen disease
severity. Nevertheless, experts say it should be part of a healthy
lifestyle. In a March 23 column for example, former Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention D irector Dr. Tom Frieden wrote, “ T he
science supports the possibility although not the proof that vitamin D
may strengthen the immune system, particularly of people whose
vitamin D levels are low ” . The idea stems in part from experiments
that have found tha t the vitamin which is synthesized in the skin after
sun exposure and is found in select foods i s used by the immune
system.

Some r esearch also suggests vitamin D supplements might protect
against respiratory infections especially if someone is deficient i n the
vitamin. Many of the people most affected by the c oronavirus such as
the elderly and minority populations tend to have lower vitamin D
levels , but experts caution against over interpreting preliminary
correla tion or hypothetical mechanisms. Pennsylva nia State
University nutrition researcher A. Catherine Ross told us associations
are not the same as cause and effect and the evidence either for or
against vitamin D and COVID - 19 is , “ extremely weak ” .

A rapid review from Oxford University's Center for Evi dence Based
Medicine found , “ no clinical evidence that vitamin D could prevent or
treat COVID - 19. ” Another review on the topic published by nearly two
dozen nutrition experts in BMJ Nutrition, Prevention, & Health
recommended avoiding vitamin D deficiency, but warned against
taking h igh doses of the vitamin. The authors wrote , “ A s a key
micronutrient vitamin D should be given particular focus, not as a
magic bullet to beat COVID - 19 as the scientific evidence base is

Congressman James Clyburn

severely lacking at this time, but rather as part of the healthy lifestyle
strategy to ensure that populations are nutritionally in the best
possible place . ” Thus, while it's a good idea to get enough vitamin D
pandemic or not , it's too early to say that a lack of vitamin D makes
COVID - 19 worse o r that supplementing with vitamin D provides any
protection against the disease. Several randomized control trials are
in the works which may reveal a more concrete answer. That's my fat
check for this week. I'm Lori Robertson, Managing Editor of
FactCheck .org.

Margaret Flinter: FactCheck.org is committed to factual accuracy from the country's
major political players and is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy
Center at the University of Pennsylvania. If you have a fact that you'd
like checked, e - mail u s at www.chcradio.com . We'll have
FactCheck.org’s Lori Robertson check it out for you here on
Conversations on Health Care.

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Mark Masselli: Each week Conversations highlights a bright idea about how to make
w ellness a part of our communities and everyday lives. Pregnancy is
normally an exciting time for most women , but according to the
research an estimated 10% of prenatal women experience d some
kind of depression during their pregnancy and many are reluctant to
treat their depression with medication for fear of harming the fetus.

Dr. Cynthia Battle: In fact, a higher percentage are experiencing lower grade depressive
symptoms , so they might not meet the full criteria for major
depressive episode, but they're h aving significant symptoms that are
getting in the way of feeling good. Left untreated , those mild to
moderate symptoms can progress in some cases lead to a more
serious postpartum depression.

Mark Masselli: Dr. Cynthia Battle is a psychologist at Brown Un iversity with a practice
at Women & Infants Hospital in Providence . She and her colleagues
decided to test a cohort of pregnant women to see if a targeted
prenatal yoga class, which combines exercise with mindfulness
techniques might have a positive impact on women dealing with
prenatal depression .

Dr. Cynthia Battle: It was a typical kind of Hatha yoga t hat would include physical
postures, breathing exercises, meditation exercises . We enrolled 34
women who were pregnant, who had clinical levels of depressi on.
They all had medical clearance from their prenatal care providers, and
they would come to classes and we measured their change in
depressive sym ptoms over that period of time.

Mark Masselli: Not only were women able to manage their depressive incidents , they
also bonded with other pregnant women during the program and

Congressman James Clyburn

found additional support from their group.

Dr. Cynthia Battle: The initial signs from this research are really encouraging , so we found
that women on average were reporting that they were reporting
much less.

Mark Masselli: A larger study with control groups is being planned with the
assistance of the Natio nal Institute of Mental Health.

Dr. Cynthia Battle: Women who are depressed during pregnancy unfortunately do often
have less ideal bir th outcomes. One thing we're interested in seeing is
when we provide prenatal yoga program can it improve mood and
then can we even see some positive effects in terms of the birth
outcomes?

Mark Masselli: A guided non - medical yoga exercise program designed to assist
pregnant women through depression symptoms, helping them
successfully navigate those symptoms without medication, ensuring a
safer pregnancy and a healthier outcome for mother and baby. Now
that's a bright idea.

[ Music ]

Mark Masselli: You've bee n listening to Conversations on Health Care. I'm Mark
Masselli.

Margaret Flinter: And I'm Margaret Flinter.

Mark Masselli: Peace and Health.

Female : Conversations on Health Care is recorded at WESU at Wesleyan
University, streaming live at www.chcradio.com , iTunes, or wherever
you listen to podcasts. If you have comments, please e - mail us at
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