‘Next Week Will be Telling’: Reporters Prepare for Ex-CDC Dir. Testimony

Mark (00:04)
Policymakers in the new administration continue to make major decisions that affect the healthcare of all
Americans. Expert reporters are joining us from Washington to break down the latest development.

Michael McAuliff (00:16)
I have a story out this morning on, on whether there's any prospects for extending those subsidies, that do expire
at the end of the year. And I spoke to some of the lead Republican sponsors of a bill that would do that. And to
be perfectly honest with you, they di dn't seem really convinced that this was gonna go anywhere.

Margaret Flinter (00:33)
Our guests today are Sandhya Ramen, healthcare Reporter for Congressional Quarterly and Roll Call, and
Michael McCullough, who covers policy for M odern H ealthcare.

Sandh ya Raman (00:43)
The main thing for me that, that stuck out is, you know, how do you bring some of these ideas to fruition? you
know, there's a lot of calls for research into various things, but at the same time, you know, the, the White House
budget reque st, calls for a 40% decreased NIH funding.

Margaret (00:59)
This is Conversations on Healthcare.

Mark (01:13)
We begin with a few thoughts about the tragic event of recent days. We send our heartfelt condolences to the
family of Charlie Kirk. Political v iolence can never be a way to solve differences. We started conversations,
Margaret, to create an opportunity to have greater dialogue and understanding. We must all continue to work
toward that goal. Now let's turn to our reporter round table. Michael, we lcome back to Conversations on
Healthcare and Sandhya . thank you for joining us for the first time.

Michael (01:43)
Thanks.

Sandhya (01:44)
Thanks.

Mark (01:45)
Well, let's start, with, HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. A question for both of you. The re have been an
overwhelming number of calls for Kennedy's resignation specifically, because of how he's handled this year's
COVID vaccine. and this follows the news that Kennedy forced out the CDC Director over a refusal to follow
his wishes on vaccine po policy. Can you give our listeners an update on what's happening right now?

Michael (02:13)
Well, the most recent thing I saw today was a group of, Democrats on the House Energy and Commerce
Committee are, are asking for explanations about Susan men's fi ring. but I haven't heard anything new on, on,
on Mr. Kennedy resigning at all. And I would be very surprised, to see that happen. I think in as long as he has
the full support of President Trump, he's gonna, he's gonna be there because like, if you go bac k even to his
confirmation hearing when there was a, a lot of concern about his views on vaccines and some other things,
ultimately the Republicans got in line and, and voted for him. And although, you know, Dr. Bill Cassidy on the
Help Committee has certa inly raised some concerns, and he doesn't like some of these stances, he hasn't said the
man has to go. So I think that's, that's, we're in that holding pattern until, until something new happens, until he
loses, the confidence of the president.

Sandhya (03:05)
I think next week is gonna be really telling, the senate help committee is having Susan M an arez testify. and, you
know, kind of hearing for her publicly for the first time, just speak about, you know, what happened there in the,
her very short tenu re. And I think that'll answer some of the questions that, you know, bill Cassidy and some of
the others have been a little bit more, unsure about, you know, that they've said that they wanna hear a little bit
more on, and, you know, how that goes could ha ve an impact. But, you know, like Michael said, I haven't heard
as much in recent days of new folks other than, you know, a lot of the medical groups, a lot of Democrats. And,
just last week, the Trump's surgeon General from his first term, Jerome Adams , a lso calling for, RFK Junior to
step Down.

Margaret (03:54)
We'll look forward to that next week. and Michael Secretary Kennedy also made news this week by releasing
his Make America Healthy again, report focused on children's health. We've all been reading it. It seems to
leave supporters and critics without the details perhaps that they were looking for. But Michael, let's start with
you. What are your thoughts about it?

Micheal (04:16)
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. There's a lot of calls for studie s and things like that in there. there are, sort of a
lot of repetition of the points that he has raised, concerns about autism and vaccines, and some of the broader
health things that are, are less, of a concern for the sort of healthcare industry. But, b ut they're all in there and
still most of it is sort of reports and things like that. There I did notice some things about, a call to really push
for transparency in, in hospital pricing and things like that, that, that the industry really cares about. But I think
most of it is sort of in the realm of, of studies and, and we'll see what happens. And the last I heard about the big
autism study, it's, it's not done yet, so we'll have to wait until that that is released. it's supposed to be within
weeks, but i f it wasn't, if it was still being written last week, I'm not sure if we'll actually see it.

Margaret (05:10)
Sandhya, do you wanna comment on the MAHA report at all?

Sandhya (05:13)
Yeah, I think there were two things that kind of struck me. One was tha t some of the things that were notably
missing, there's no mention really of, of gun violence and among children and how that's a, you know, a leading
cause of death for, for kids. And, you know, it looking at sort of the whole picture of, of, you know, im proving
children's health, and, and not a lot on like tobacco and things like that and other leading cause of, of death
among adults. But I think the main thing for me that, that stuck out is, you know, how do you bring some of
these ideas to fruition? you know, there's a lot of calls for research into various things, but at the same time, you
know, the, the White House budget request, calls for a 40% decreased NIH funding, which is, you know, where
so much of that research is. and, and Congress hasn't kind of come together on what they do plan to do that.
We're still, we're still hammering that out before the end of the year. But, it's unclear how some of those things
would come without that money. You know, even a lot of the food type, language in there, y ou know, we've had
the cuts to snap earlier this year through the one big, beautiful bill. So there seems to be a little bit of a
disconnect between how we get some of these goals accomplished if we aren't, you know, funding the money
for making them happe n.

Mark (06:26)
You know, Sandhya , let's, let's turn to the government vaccine panel, which we'll meet, to consider revisions to
the childhood vaccine schedule. And the secretary has reorganized the panel, and I'm wondering if you think
this will be the n ext controversy, to hit?

Sandhya (06:44)
I mean, I think that, you know, in the lead up before the, the two days of, of ASIP next week, we've had a lot of
people calling to reschedule it, as one of the big reasons that they're having frustrations with, RF K Junior, just
because of some of the things that have happened before, in, in the first time. And just, you know, we're at this
critical time where even when people have been told that they can get the COVID vaccine, they're having issues
across the count ry being able to access it depending on where they live or having to pay out of pocket, and not
being able to afford that. So I think it will be really interesting to watch if it does not get delayed. And if we end
up seeing more people appointed before th en, there have been some rumors that, that he'll appoint the rest to fill
up all of the slots on it. and some those names have been circulated, but it's, it, I think that'll also play a factor in
what we'll kind of see there next week.

Margaret (07:39)
Mi chael, I, I wanna, pull the thread a little bit. You mentioned, with the Maha report, the, the long - awaited
report on, autism, and the fact that it's not ready yet, but there's also, it seemed to me in, in kind of reading
between the lines, two things. One , there hasn't been much written about the study itself, or not that I think has
been, generally made widely available. I think in, in the research community, people are used to having more
details on, on the study. I, I wonder if, if, that is something th at you've, noted or if there's been much discussion
in the circles, that you're in. And the second, is how much, of the research in the MAHA Report seems to rely on
Veteran Affairs, V eteran Affairs as patients and the VA as data for the reports they're usi ng, which is a little bit
unusual, from what we've seen in the past. Any, any thoughts on that? Does that strike you at all from the …

Michael (08:34)
I don't have much in the way of thoughts on the VA stuff. I haven't really followed that very closely, b ut I did
hear an awful lot of, researchers complain about this really compressed timeline for coming up with what's
supposed to be a sort of authoritative and definitive, definitive report on autism. Like there've been people who
have researching this for decades, and, you know, they make small advances, they make some fairly broad
conclusions, like the determination that vaccines do not cause autism. That's broadly supported by a whole cadre
of reports. But, you know, figuring out what the causes are, are, is extremely complex. And I haven't heard of
any researchers who are, convinced that you can, you know, in a few months put together a sweeping conclusive
report. So I think when it does come out, if it does come out, there will be a lot of skepticism in the research
community.

Margaret (09:24)
It w ill be widely read, that's for sure.

Michael (09:27)
Yes. It will certainly widely read .

Mark (09:29)
For both of you the Affordable Care Act. We have a, a trigger date by the end of the year that action needs to be
taken. What are, what are we hearing? I know there was a committee meeting the other day and a loss of
consternation about how, this might be handled over the next few months, maybe sometime in September. What
are you all hearing?

Michael (09: 49)
Well, I, I have a story out this morning on, on whether there's any prospects for extending those subsidies, that
do expire at the end of the year. And I spoke to some of the lead Republican sponsors of a bill that would do
that. And to be perfectly ho nest with you, they didn't seem really convinced that this was gonna go anywhere.
They thought that the leadership was much more focused on, the government shutdown and the politics around
that and, and avoiding a government shutdown. And that they would p erhaps, you know, be more, receptive to
discussions about the Affordable Care Act, you know, after they deal with that. But that puts you right up
against when open enrollment is coming, you know, prices are already set, people have to sign up, and when
th ey see that that sticker on, on what their healthcare is gonna cost, you'll probably start seeing a lot of people,
you know, bail out of it. You know, on the other hand, I have heard from some Democrats who think they can
use the government funding sort of leverage point to get those subsidies extended, at least for a brief period of
time. so we'll sort of, you know, it gets really murky with the politics and, and how that will actually play out,
W e're actually pretty close. Yeah.

Mark (11:02)
Certainly Th e politics, they've pushed everything off on the work requirement and the impact on Medicaid to the
end of 2026 or a after the election. It's surprising this one, is, is being left out there, alone because it will impact,
millions of Americans.

Michael (1 1:22)
Yeah, well, the, the, it's difficult for Republicans. They spent a long time, you know, trying to repeal
Obamacare. it's very popular at this point with many of their constituents. So they're sort of stuck and, and
members of their base still really distrust it. So they're in a tough place politically. And when they didn't address
it in the big sweeping tax bill, a big part of the reason was that political tension and the cost, it's very expensive.
I think the 10 - year cost is something like 335 billio n. So, you know, you're trying to at least partially fund your
tax cuts to, you know, put another 335 billion on that. It's very hard for, for them, especially when you have
conservatives who don't want, you know, Obamacare to exist at all. So, you know, t here's a lot of pressure from
the ground up from people who use the Affordable Care Act to get their insurance, but there's also a lot of sort
of ideological pressure, from the right to prevent this from happening and a cost pressure. So it's gonna be, qui te
hard to extend these subsidies , I think .

Sandhya (12:28)
I would add on, it's, you know, even as of this morning, it's, it's all been so in flux. you know, here at the Capitol
this morning, you know, Democrats from both chambers were, were huddling and they did a press huddle, you
know, just a couple hours ago. And, you know, they emphasized they really wanna do this, but it didn't seem
like it was the be all end all for, for getting, you know, a, a deal breaker for necessarily in the next few weeks, as
long as they come to some sort of very bipartisan agreement to keep the government funding open. But then,

you know, even, some of the Republicans that, that me and my colleagues were talking to were, you know,
saying like, expect, you know, the unexpecte d to happen. So like, we're not sure, you know, is it, you know, as,
as the jockeying goes forward in the next few weeks, if, if it can get across the finish line in exchange for
something else?

Margaret (13:15)
Well, maybe, a question for both of you. we 're, in the middle of September, it's been, quite a year, 2026. And, a
question to both of you would be, if we look back to January, it could be synonymous with, layoffs and early
retirements and reductions in workforce throughout multiple levels of govern ment, certainly at H - A - H - H - S and,
NIH and CDC, and I'm sure other departments as well. you know, the, the, statement from the administration
was these agencies were overstaffed and they were ineffective. What are you, seeing and reporting on in terms
of t he impact of so many people leaving? And these were often pretty senior, highly experienced people as well
as I'm sure some newer people, the impact of people leaving those federal healthcare rules.

Michael (14:06)
Sandhya, do you wanna start with that?

Sandhy a (14:07)
Yeah, so, so I think it depends, you know, from agency to agency, there's some that, you know, we've been
hearing it's harder to get some of the things done that they have in the pipeline, especially if, you know, there are
new kind of regu lations of things they need to work through and comb through, or having folks that, that might
not be their specialty, but this, you know, task of someone that was, you know, let go earlier is now on their
plate. I think something that I've been looking at more is some of the, the, the contracts and the grants that, you
know, are not, fed out to places across the country where people, you know, researchers, and, and folks like that,
people at nonprofits that are, not seeing that money trickle out. And so th ey're also, you know, making those
layoffs, making decisions about what kind of services and research they can do, and kind of looking to the future
on that. and some of that has just really been in flux, especially, you know, if their lawmaker has been ab le to, to
reach out and get, you know, some, some of that funding reinstated. Some of those folks may be kept on board,
but a lot of states, I think are, are making decisions about, you know, how do we keep this program going? is
there room in our budget t o, to kind of fill in the gap, especially when maybe we have less money to play with
because of, having to, you know, fill in the gaps for things like Medicaid and SNAP based on what we had with
reconciliation this year. So it's, it's been a mix, and I thi nk that, with so much going on, it can sometimes get
easy to, to, to, to push this one aside, just because, you know, the, the conversation of the day might be, you
know, what is happening with vaccines or what is happening with other aspects of public hea lth, but it's still a,
an important thing to be watching .

Michael (15:48)
What I've been mostly hearing. And I, I don't really cover the agencies in the level of detail that Sandhya
probably does, but, there's real morale problems in, in addition to an en ormous workload, and responsibilities
that some people just aren't required, to do or, or weren't expecting to do. So they're trying to backfill, and it's
just a really stressful, difficult situation as you could imagine. But I, one of the, one of the agen cies that I really
do cover a lot just for, for many years is the, the 9 - 1 1 health program, which is in, in NIH under the CDC.
they're supposed to have 134 or 135 people, they've got 80, right? Today is the anniversary of the September
11th attacks. Yes. A nd they haven't been able to get any firm commitments just to do all the hiring that they
need. they've got all, they can't do meetings with the public, and they've got all these diseases that are fairly rare,
that are cropping up in the nine 11 community, but they can't get the agency to sign off on whether or not they
should be part of the program because there aren't the professionals there to do the work, and they can't have the
conversations with the researchers and the hospital officials in the outsid e community. So it's really hampering
that effort. And I, and I am sure that if you look across the, the agency, you would find all the agencies in the, in
the HHS, you would find similar sorts of things where normal processes that, that help folks in the country just
can't happen because they don't have the people to execute them. And it just happens to be that today's the 9 - 11
anniversary, and I, I know a lot about that one, so, yeah. but I, I bet you that's going on, in a lot of places.

Mark (17:28)
Yeah. I know you're, reporters and not odds makers, but the government might shut down. I'm wondering what
each one of you thinks about that, and maybe to get a little, the detail one issue, Margaret, we know this, that
millions of Americans across the cou ntry rely on telehealth being, allowed, and that also is at play. I believe.
Maybe you could sort of handicap what you think, the chances are the government's gonna shut down and then
maybe shine a little light on what you think's going on in the telehealt h exceptions, exemptions.

Michael (17:59)
Well, I think the September 30th deadline is, the odds are relatively low. I think that it will shut down then. I'm,
I, I'm pretty confident they would come up with a stop gap. Okay. As for telehealth, it's nearly universally
popular, amongst, you know, the folks in Congress. however, there is a cost to it, which is why they haven't
simply permanently extended it. it'll probably get done. Could there be a lapse? There could be. I would've, I
would suspect that they probably extend some of these, more important healthcare programs a little bit longer
than whatever stop gap they come up with to keep the government open, because, there'll be a political brawl
over that. And, and really honestly, predicting the ultimate outcome, is pretty hard. 'cause I do think they'll
probably have a short stop gap, but after that, who knows?

Sandhya (18:53)
You know, I have been thinking a little bit for a while that there likely will be some sort of shutdown just
because there has b een so much tension. I don't know that it would necessarily be right away, kind of like
Michael said. and kind of the options that they've been floating to kind of, move things along, have, have not
been perfectly aligned. I mean, next week they're, they'r e hoping to do, you know, house Republicans wanna do
a, a clean CR until November, December. And then I think you have the people that, you know, we get back to
the A CA tax credit. It's like, if you are not including that, do we want to include go forward with that? Then,
then there are folks that, you know, the, the tax credits are non - starters. So then they, they might not vote for the
clean cr. and then there's, you know, also been the hope of, you know, at this point in time, you know, at least
doing so me of the funding bills, maybe not HHS, but some of the ones that are a little easier to get across the
finish line. And, you know, if you add that to funding for everything else, it gets more complicated to get some
of the votes there. And just, I, I thin k the, the mood in, in Washington has been, you know, a lot of people are
frustrated if you talk to some of the Democrats, they're, you know, worried that, you know, they might, vote for
funding that gets, you know, pulled back and rescissions are not dole d out. And, I think that it's tough, to, to see,
you know, them kind of come together on something right now .

Mark (20:22)
And only gonna get tougher as the two congressional seats are gonna be filled. And it looks like they'll probably
go to Democrats. S o the house margin will be much narrower.

Michael (20:32)
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And just, just a, just a little quick reminder of how uncertain things are. Last December,
we had a bipartisan deal signed off on by the leadership that was days away from pa ssing, and Elon Musk
tweeted, and the whole thing fell apart, and all those healthcare items went by the wayside, and we're still
waiting to pass them. So that's how uncertain and how unpredictable Congress can be these days.

Sandhya (20:58)
I do think th at, you know, if we do get whatever type of funding, whether it's for two weeks or two months or a
year, it's been pretty standard that a lot of the healthcare extenders kind of get coupled onto there. So, you know,
I would, I would expect, you know, for w hatever length of CR we would get, we would get, you know, a
telehealth extension for that, or funding for things, that have been, regularly extended things like, you know, the
National Health Service Corps, you know, community health center funding, speci al diabetes program, things
like that. generally, you know, get paired with that and, and would get moved along, but maybe not a longer
extension given how many things are at play.

Margaret (21:38)
Well, thank you for that. And, I think we can say from th e fields, if the extenders don't get extended, you'll have
lots to report on about what happens, beyond the beltway, within the healthcare communities. And Michael, I
wanna thank you for, acknowledging, for everybody that this day that we're, speaking with you on is, nine 11
and, always a somber day for all of us in this country to remember back, to that day. So thank you for, for
raising that. you know, this was, kind of, late breaking, news that, I read, I believe yesterday, and I don't know if
you wanna comment on it, but it was, the Secretary of Education, speaking on, mental health screening in
schools and really op - ed piece Yeah. Kind of in an op - ed piece laying out that, you know, inappropriate, we
shouldn't be, maybe we cause more mental health probl ems by screening and raising these issues. sort of hadn't
heard, recently so much from the Department of Education after a lot early on. Wonder if you have any
comments. Is this kind of a new role for the Secretary of Education to, go into the health dimen sions of, children
in the schools in this way and, and comment on policy?

Michael (22:50)
Well, I think it's not entirely unprecedented. I, I've certainly heard previous education secretaries talking about
the sort of whole child and, and all the needs that need to go into that, but I, I don't, and I believe there's an, an
op - ed between with Kennedy and, Linda McMahon that sort of talks about this. That's what I, so she's sort of
doing it, in joint with the HHS secretary. But I really don't think I've ev er heard, top government officials say
that we should provide less mental healthcare for children. I mean, I, I, I can sort of get their underlying
argument that, you know, having a an overall healthy life would, you know, perhaps lessen the need for some of
these things. But I don't think I've ever heard, a professional at the top of these agencies say, no, no, less, less
mental healthcare for children. That's, that one is unprecedented for me.

Mark (23:40)
You know, earlier in the year, Congress passed t he HR one, that contains significant healthcare cuts. And
Michael, you've reported that providers are finding ways to adapt. can you share some of the strategies that
people are using?

Michael (23:54)
Yeah. Well, I, I went to, Adams County in Pennsylvania, because it's a pretty rural county, but it also has some
small urban centers, and they're all looking at their spreadsheets. You know, it's, it's the administrator's version
of doom scrolling because they're, they're anticipating what they're gonna lose, right? so they're really leaning
into technology as a way to try and make themselves more efficient. Now, they were already doing that, but, to
sort of quote them, this has really spurred that on, like, they have, a couple of AI programs that they're using, to
help, especially with, sort of intakes and discharges, right? So they can compile that data much more easily.
They have these, really interesting, remote nurse stations, virtual nurse stations they call them, where they can
have one nurse in a central location, say in Gettysburg, you know, monitor a room or a ward in another part of
the state, and it'll light up yellow. If somebody starts changing their behavior, it'll light up red if they're getting
near the edge of the bed and they can s ay, Hey, you got, you gotta go get over into that room. So they're doing a
whole bunch of, and robotic surgery, they're really trying to improve how much they can do with robots because
they have a quicker surgery time, a quicker recovery time, and the pat ient can go home much sooner. So they
have more bed space. It's just much, much more efficient. On the other hand, you do all of that, if you do lose
the amounts of money that they're worried about, then they have to start looking, do we close remote clini cs?
Right? Do we not upgrade to the latest technology to keep our new technology up to speed? So they're really
weighing all of these things and trying to anticipate where it's gonna hurt the most. And they're also working
with their officials, like they'r e talking to the state officials. 'cause the state will have to implement all of these
new requirements for, for all the, you know, work requirements and whatnot in the new, in the new law. And
perhaps they can get their lawmakers to mitigate some of this. So they're really, they're work really working on
all of those levels.

Margaret (25:58)
Well, certainly one of the trends over recent years, and there has seemed to be a, a interest in acceleration of that
is the conversion of Medicare from what we call traditional Medicare to getting everybody in Medicare
advantage plans, really privatizing Medicare. Any thoughts on how that is proceeding and whether you see a
increased emphasis on advancing that in the country?

Michael (26:22)
I personally haven't. I m ean, beyond the normal trends, I, I've seen a little bit of a backlash, in the last couple of
years. So I think that trend is probably slowing down just a little bit. but at the same time, you know, if you're,
especially if you're poorer, Medicare Advantag e covers a whole lot of other things that you, you can't get from,
Medicare, even if you buy a Medigap policy, you still gotta get, you know, dental and vision and things like
that. So, so that trend is still there, but I, I haven't seen sort of an overt p ush, at least not in the industry because
of so many of the problems with prior authorization and denials and things like that. So it seems to be a little bit
in a sort of, holding pattern right now. And there's all that legislation in Congress and, and th e regulations that
the, previous and current administration have proposed to deal with some of the, kinks in the system. so I think
people want to see how that kind of works out before they decide, you know, which, which direction to push
hard in. I mean, that, that's just my feeling, and based on what I've been seeing.

Mark (27:27)
And what are you hearing from maybe for both of you about the upcoming, midterm election? I know Michael,
you've written about, can, interesting candidate recruitment strategy. and, just wondering how you all think,
what's playing out now is very much focused about, the midterms.

Sandhya (27:47)
I think something that we're already seeing is how much healthcare is becoming, you know, the issue, which is
different from what we s aw, you know, last election where I think that it was, it was one of the issues. And in,
you know, some cases it was emphasized higher up, but when we saw, you know, how people voted, it was, you
know, a lot of, you know, you know, cost of living increases and, and immigration was, was really high up on
the list. But now I, I feel like, you know, even if you look at some of the town halls with, with current people, in
office, it, it's really brought up as, you know, I have, you know, concerns about this. I wanna know if this is
gonna be yanked, can I still, you know, go to the doctor here. So I think we'll really see more of that emphasis
on the Democrat side at least just, you know, how, important of an issue that is. But for Republicans, I think it'll
be a little interesting 'cause they've already started kind of rebranding, the, the reconciliation law that, that they
passed this year and kind of, you know, changing how their messaging on it. So I think they're understanding
that it will be a big issue and just kind of figuring out how they can brand it a little bit differently. and I think
definitely what happens with the A CA tax credits, whether or not they're extended or not, you know, when
people will see that sticker shock, in the coming months, that wi ll be a big thing for, you know, kind of how
that's messaged on based on whether that's there for folks, next year.

Michael (29:13)
Yeah. Well, I, I'm still seeing on the Republican side, they're leaning very hard into, the taking the dangerous
people off the streets argument and on the, tax cuts, it's all about how Democrats opposed, or Democrats wanted
to raise taxes is usually how they, they put it, you know, by thousands of dollars on middle class voters. But at
the same time, and as I wrote in the sto ry, the whole big, beautiful bill has spurred a bunch of folks in the
healthcare sector to come out and run for office. And just, I guess it was just yesterday or the day before when
the Democrats had their sort of, weekly press conference after their mee tings. I don't know if you can see this,
but the backdrop was just healthcare. Everything up on their little poster board was about healthcare. So it, it, it
tells you very clearly that the Democrats are going to lean incredibly hard into all of the health care issues. and
that will be probably the defining issue unless some crazy new thing happens, in 2026, which I found really
interesting because healthcare was kind of a back burner issue all the way through the 2024 campaign, right?
Democrats talked about it sort of as a broader part of their agenda, but they didn't focus on it really hard the way
they are now. And this bill passing has really focused everyone's attention on healthcare, again .

Margaret (30:42)
Back to 2008. And we really want to thank yo u Sandhya and Michael for joining us. Thank you to our audience
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(31:03)
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