Interview with NBC’s Dr. John Torres On Location at Aspen Ideas: Health

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Margaret Flinter ( 00:01 ):
Recorded on location at Aspen Ideas Health in Aspen, Colorado.
Mark Masselli ( 00:12 ):
Well, we all see him on the news informing us of health care stories that are important to you and your
loved ones. We also followed him during the pandemic as the COVID vaccines were rolling out and his
efforts to receive, to find them and then to receive it.
Dr. John Torres ( 00:29 ):
If you do get information, whether it's from the CDC, whether it's from me, whether it's from social
media, second check that, third check it. Just look at other sources. And if you get something from a
source you think might be a little questionable, look at a sound source and then look at a second sound
source and make sure you get that information.
Margaret Flinter ( 00:45 ):
Our guest today is Dr. John Torres. He's the Senior Medical Correspondent for NBC News. And we have
the great pleasure of seeing him and speaking with him live and in - person at the Aspen Festival of Ideas
Health.
Dr. John Torres ( 00:57 ):
Now, I think that's the struggle, is moving forward and going, how do we do this? How do we
incorporate social media? Because that's our life these days, and especially the younger children and
adults as they're growing up, that's going to be their life, and that's where they're getting most of their
information, like you say. But how do we make sure that they're getting this accurate information? And
part of that is the companies themselves saying, "Let's not give a platform to information that we know
is incorrect."
Margaret Flinter ( 01:18 ):
And this is Conversations on Health Care.
Mark Masselli ( 01:29 ):
Well, Dr. John, if I may.
Dr. John Torres ( 01:30 ):
Yep.
Mark Masselli ( 01:31 ):
Welcome to Conversations on Health Care.
Dr. John Torres ( 01:31 ):
Thank you.
Mark Masselli ( 01:33 ):

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You're at this interesting intersection both as a journalist and as a physician. And both of those
industries are sort of struggling with issues around trust.

Dr. John Torres ( 01:45 ):
No, it's interesting because that trust has eroded over the years. And when I first came into medicine in
the '90s, the doctors were still held to that point of I can get information from them, I can believe them,
I can trust them. And over the decades it's now evolved for some reason to this second guessing, are
they telling me the truth? What's going on? What's happening? It's an interesting world.

Mark Masselli ( 02:06 ):
Yeah. At the height of the pandemic, I think there was a survey that showed that 41% of the country
trusted mainstream media. And that's a real challenge, NBC News being really sort of one of those
mainstream medias. I'm just wondering how we move from that point to increasing trust levels.

Dr. John Torres ( 02:32 ):
What it comes down to, and this is what I talked about a lot during the pandemic too, is unfortunately
there was a lot of misinformation out there. There was a lot of miscommunication of information out
there. And both those together were causing the struggle of trying to get the information to people in a
way that they would understand, number one, but also believe it.
( 02:50 ):
And part of it is, during the pandemic what you were seeing is you were seeing science happen real
time. And typically what happens is in a world pre - pandemic, pre - social media, science would come out
with experiments and they'd do them for 10, 15 years and then they'd come out with a result that had
been experimented on for 10, 15 years. Well, during the pandemic, we were calling it science by press
release or science by social media release where somebody somewhere would say, "Hey, I tried this on
three patients and it worked on two of them," and people all of a sudden are like, "Hey, that works."

Mark Masselli ( 02:50 ):
That's right.

Dr. John Torres ( 03:19 ):
And then as doctors, as journalists, it was a struggle trying to disprove a negative, trying to say, "Well, it
doesn't work because we don't know enough about it," or, "It doesn't work because it doesn't make
sense from a medical point of view." So that's a struggle and that's going to continue to be a struggle.

Margaret Flinter ( 03:33 ):
Well, I want to pick up on the social media part, but I think you're right, it was kind of operation work
speed when it came to the release of information as much as the release of vaccines. But sort of building
on the statistic you used, 30% of, or the majority of people under the age of 30, I guess it is, get most of
their information from social media.
( 03:52 ):
You're a news correspondent, but it seems like you have to make that choice of how much to engage in
social media often, particularly refuting information that's coming out. Is that part of your role to be on
Twitter, to be on the newsfeeds and just pushing back and correcting things as they come out?

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Dr. John Torres ( 04:09 ):
And during the pandemic it started off as a fairly big part of my role of making sure I was on social media
and I was on a different platforms and addressing people's concerns and stuff. And then you realize
pretty soon that when you start trying to engage individually, it turns into this, unfortunately, this big
circle of information and misinformation going around. And you end up getting into these almost word
battles with people trying to get them to understand what you're talking about in a very brief time
period.
( 04:36 ):
We've all been to doctors. We've all looked at medicines and vaccines and things, and it's complicated.
And so you can't do it in a certain number of letters that you might get in social media. You can't do it in
certain seconds. It takes minutes, hours to explain these things. So now I think that's the struggle, is
moving forward and going, how do we do this? How do we incorporate social media? Because that's our
life these days, and especially the younger children and adults as they're growing up, that's going to be
their life and that's where they're getting most of their information, like you say. But how do we make
sure that they're getting this accurate information?
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And part of that is the companies themselves saying, "Let's not give a platform to
information that we know is incorrect." Give a platform to the information that might be correct, and
we're still struggling to learn information is correct, but for the obvious misinformation, we have to get a
better handle on that.

Mark Masselli ( 05:23 ):
Well, you're breaking so many interesting new stories and introducing people to new concepts. I know
you have a long history in the military, United States Air Force, I think eight years.

Dr. John Torres ( 05:33 ):
Eight years active duty, and then 24 years guard and reserve. So 32 total.

Mark Masselli ( 05:37 ):
Yeah. And I know you recently broke a story that was quite interesting about the Veterans Affairs using
psychedelics and really with some interesting outcomes that are happening. I think people might be
fascinated to understand how you came to that story and maybe tell us a little bit about what's going on
because it's having an important impact for post - traumatic stress disorder and other problems.

Dr. John Torres ( 06:02 ):
Exactly. And because of the War on Terror Operation or Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom, all
these different wars and conflicts we've been involved with. Plus, because of the pandemic, and this is
not a military specific thing, but this is a population wide thing of PTSD becoming more and more
prevalent.
( 06:18 ):
And so the main objective here is trying to figure out how we can better treat PTSD with the main goal
of being curing PTSD if we can get to that point. And so there's a lot of different theories and medicines
out there that could potentially work.
( 06:31 ):

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And kudos to the VA for taking that step and saying, "Let's look at this," because the psychedelics, we're
getting information that seems to be working because of the way it works on the brain. It seems to be
able to alter the brain where it can handle that information a little bit better and it can handle that PTSD
a little bit better.
( 06:46 ):
And so the VA, again, kudos to them, they were able to take that step and say, "Let's try this on
veterans." And one of the reasons they did this, and this is what we found out in the story when we
were doing our investigations early on, is a lot of veterans were going to Mexico to get psychedelic
treatment because they had heard anecdotally that, "Hey, this is working." And so they were so
desperate to get something, they would go down there and get the psychedelics and a lot of them were
coming back going, "I'm so much better. I have a better handle on my PTSD. It wasn't cured, but I'm
certainly better."
( 07:16 ):
And so the VA listened, which is something that sometimes they get a bad rap for not listening, but they
listened and they said, "Let's try this trial and find out." It's still ongoing and it's still working its way
through the system, but it's showing promising results.
( 07:27 ):
And the interesting part of it is with psychedelics, it's not, and this was probably the big important
message that came out of the story, and I wanted to make sure that we were adamant about making
sure that message was presented, is it's not the psychedelic that is actually fixing them. What the
psychedelic is doing is it's lowering their inhibitions, letting them bring that trauma to the surface so
then the therapist can work with them on that trauma, which is something they weren't able to do
before.
( 07:52 ):
Again, it was a story that we had heard through social media and through other avenues that veterans
were going down to Mexico to get this. They were having successes. And so then we talked to the VA
and they said, "Yeah, we're starting to do these experiments on this and studies on this to find out if it's
working." And it looks like it is.

Mark Masselli ( 08:06 ):
I thought you did a great job of illuminating that it's not just the drug, it's the therapist alongside guiding
somebody through that experience.

Dr. John Torres ( 08:13 ):
And they were adamant when I was interviewing them. They said, "You have to make sure that you
include this."

Mark Masselli ( 08:13 ):
That's right.

Dr. John Torres ( 08:18 ):
And as a physician journalist, one of my big mandates when I first came into this job is, one of my big
things is I took an oath, do no harm. I've taken two oaths in my life. One is to protect the constitution
because of my military, and then do no harm because of my medical. And so with that oath, I'm never

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going to violate it. And I want to make sure that when I do these stories that I'm doing no harm, that I'm
actually giving them the information.
( 08:38 ):
I don't want people to leave with the information thinking, "Well, if I just take some mushrooms, I'm
going to be fine." No. This is intensive therapy. Using mushrooms is part of that and the door opener
essentially. And I wanted to make sure that information got across.
Mark Masselli ( 08:50 ):
That's great.
Dr. John Torres ( 08:51 ):
I would not have done the story without that. And we did.
Margaret Flinter ( 08:53 ):
We admire the Veteran Affairs organization. And I think one of the logical pieces of this is this is where
the patients are with PTSD.
Dr. John Torres ( 08:53 ):
Exactly.
Margaret Flinter ( 09:03 ):
We're making the point that in the country's network of community health centers, 30 million patients.
Also disproportionately, this is where the patients who are not finding relief from PTSD in any other way
are, and we're hoping we'll see them come into the same area of research.
( 09:17 ):
And speaking of research, I know one of the areas you're going to be talking with people about here are
the Advanced Research Projects Agency that's been created. Not sure how much across the country
people got it. This was big news, but a new research agency, $2.5 billion, not as much as they wanted,
but still significant funding.
( 09:35 ):
What do you think they're going to contribute to the nation and the world's understanding with their
projects? What are they going to focus on?
Dr. John Torres ( 09:42 ):
It's going to be an interesting conversation because it's with Renee Wegrzyn. She's the director, Dr.
Wegrzyn, and then also Dr. Andrews. She's one of the heads of the futures of what's going on with
them.
( 09:53 ):
And the interesting part is looking at one, how they were formed, why they were formed, and what kind
of template they're using. And so the best way I explain it to people is because everybody I talk to,
pretty much 98% of people, I talk about ARPA - H. And they're like ...
Margaret Flinter ( 09:53 ):

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What's that?
Dr. John Torres ( 10:10 ):
"What's ARPA - H?" And I'm like, "Well, have you ever heard of DARPA?"
Mark Masselli ( 10:11 ):
Sure.
Dr. John Torres ( 10:11 ):
And DARPA's the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. And they're the ones, and the best way I
describe it is it's a funding agency, which I, through my own investigation research found out, I thought
it was a room full of mad scientists. But no, it's a funding agency that funds mad scientists. And these
are people that go out there and they just essentially, for lack of a better term, they throw mud against
the wall. And they do that for decades and just trying to see what they can come up with and they have
tons of failures.
( 10:36 ):
But what Renee was telling me about, we're going to find out ARPA when we go through the
conversation here, is they consider failure a success because it's showing them what they can do next
time and then the next time. And they're not looking at having one or two years of having something
succeed. They're looking at decades. The best example I can give you is DARPA.
( 10:52 ):
DARPA probably spent 30 years failing, just tons of money getting from the government and failing and
failing and failing. And finally they had that one success, and we had the internet.
Mark Masselli ( 11:01 ):
That's right. Fail forward.
Dr. John Torres ( 11:03 ):
Same thing. Fail, fail, fail, lots of money, one success, GPS.
Mark Masselli ( 11:07 ):
That's right.
Margaret Flinter ( 11:07 ):
Yeah.
Dr. John Torres ( 11:08 ):
So these things that have changed our lives, and that's what they want to do with health, these
moonshots. The first one they're going to do is for osteoarthritis, which as we get older, I'm a victim of it
like anybody else, it just, your joints get worn out and they're not trying to treat it. They want to cure it,
which is impressive. And so it's going to be interesting.
( 11:25 ):

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The interesting part is going to be how they get looked at financially because money runs everything.
And if the funders who are essentially Congress, if the funders can look back and say, "Let's hands off for
a few years, we don't need successes right away. Let's let them run with this and see what happens."
Margaret Flinter ( 11:41 ):
And we have all the other institutes of NIH, so worries about turf or control. Is it your process that's
different versus your focus area?
Dr. John Torres ( 11:50 ):
And that's what we're going to talk about tomorrow in the discussion because one of the controversies
when it first was formed, it was formed a year ago, and it took them a few months to figure out where
they were going to sit as far as in the hierarchy.
( 12:04 ):
A lot of people wanted them to be independent, much like DARPA reports to the DOD, and they wanted
them at level where they responded to HHS and not be NIH. Well, they put them in the NIH and for
probably good reasons, we're going to find out tomorrow why they did that and if that's going to hinder
them at any point.
Mark Masselli ( 12:20 ):
Yeah, yeah. No, there's a lot of controversy there for people who supported it but didn't want that
particular location. So we'll look forward to you breaking the news, sharing that.
( 12:29 ):
But Margaret just mentioned that we're part of a community health center network that caress for 30
million Americans across the country, and one of the groups that we are very focused in on is Hispanic
Americans. As a Hispanic American, you know the issues both as a physician, as a journalist around the
prevalence of diabetes and obesity. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are of how we can shine a
light and do better, not only journalists, but health care providers in this particular area. So important.
( 12:58 ):
Our population continues to grow rapidly with Hispanic Americans adding such value to our nation, but
this is a health issue that we have to tackle head on.
Dr. John Torres ( 13:08 ):
It is a health issue, and part of it is that communication piece we talked about earlier. And there's
nothing more important than getting that communication piece under control and for them to trust the
physicians, the physician assistants, the nurse practitioners, the nurses, their health care team they're
working with that trust that answer because it's very common, especially in a Latino community, to get
your health information from your friend, your neighbor, your church.
Mark Masselli ( 13:30 ):
That's right.
Margaret Flinter ( 13:30 ):
From the [inaudible 00:13:31].

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Dr. John Torres ( 13:31 ):
Yeah. If that information you're getting from your friend, your family, your neighbor, your church is
incorrect, it's still going to be this information that you believe in thoroughly because that's a trusted
person that told it to you versus a doctor who you might not trust.
( 13:44 ):
Part of that is obviously is having people that look like you treating you.
Margaret Flinter ( 13:44 ):
Absolutely.
Dr. John Torres ( 13:49 ):
And that's an important step. And they're making strides in trying to get more Latinos in health care,
more Blacks in health care, more Asians and American Indians in health care so they can treat their
populations.
( 14:00 ):
The other thing is getting down to those community levels because it's one thing being in an academic
institute and them coming to you and you're in what we call the white tower of going, "This is what you
should do because I'm the doctor and I'm telling you" versus down at the community where you're
working with the leaders of the city you're in, the community you're in, and they're working in
conjunction with you to get that message across.
( 14:21 ):
And that's one thing we found out early in the pandemic, especially with vaccine, trusting the vaccines,
is getting those leaders, community leaders to say, "Yes, I got the vaccine. I trust it. You need to get it
too."
Mark Masselli ( 14:32 ):
I think you are spot on when you talk about this workforce development and that we still need to do
better. The numbers are appallingly outlandish in terms of how low they are. Thoughts as a leader, as
somebody that people look up to, how can we make that leap? Any sort of practical advice of
encouraging young people as they think about their careers, why health care is such a great opportunity.
Dr. John Torres ( 14:58 ):
Number one, just continue to tout the health care and how's a great opportunity. A lot of times they
come from, especially where I come from in New Mexico, these are poor populations and poorer
communities that they're just working to survive essentially. They're trying to get to that next level of
just feeding their family and making sure their family's clothed and housed and taken care of, that
Maslow hierarchy, they're still way at the top of that.
( 15:20 ):
But it's interesting. There are simple, simple things can actually make a big turn in somebody's life. And
for me, it was back in high school, it was a biology teacher in high school that one day just out of the
blue said, "You're smart. You should think about going into medicine. You should become a doctor." The
first person to ever say that, really.
( 15:40 ):

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I was one of the first people in my family to ever go to college, and I was just like one of these things
that I didn't even think about. I went to the Air Force Academy and I became a pilot. And then four years
later I met somebody who was trying to go to med school, and I harken back to that guy telling me that,
and I was like, "Wait a minute, I can do this." So all it takes is somebody giving you that little bit of
encouragement.
( 15:57 ):
And that's mentoring. And that's up to us, the mes of the world of going into the community and saying,
"You can do this. You can follow my footsteps," or, "You can follow in that person's footsteps."
( 16:08 ):
I'm very proud of, in my family, we have my extended family, we have one, two, three physician or two
physicians. One's about to be a physician. One just became a veteran, and this is my extended family of
cousins and uncles and aunts. So kudos.
Margaret Flinter ( 16:20 ):
Congratulations.
Mark Masselli ( 16:21 ):
Absolutely.
Margaret Flinter ( 16:21 ):
And the power of teachers always with that encouragement.
Dr. John Torres ( 16:21 ):
Exactly.
Margaret Flinter ( 16:25 ):
To say that you have a diverse portfolio of interests would be an understatement, but one of them that
I'm not sure everybody is so familiar with is your work with NATO special forces, and particularly in
combatant care and training combatants for the casualties that one encounters in the battlefield.
( 16:42 ):
We, like everybody who have been focused on Ukraine, what is happening on the ground both to
civilians and to their incredible fighting forces. Early on in this war, we had the chance to talk to some of
the physicians there in the community, but what is happening on the battlefields? Are we able to help?
Are we learning anything new about how to respond to people in these kinds of conflicts?
Dr. John Torres ( 17:04 ):
And so we are helping, which is great. We're not helping as much as we'd like to, and that's because of
severe political constraints we have because right now NATO is very adamant about making sure that
they're not involved because if NATO becomes involved, as in if they step over the border, that becomes
a completely, completely different conflict. It becomes almost a world type conflict and everybody
wants to avoid that.
( 17:24 ):

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So we're helping them as best we can without getting physically involved in their country. At the same
time, what we are doing is we are bringing them out to train them and make sure they understand. And
I've trained some of the Ukrainians myself of getting them to understand how they can take care of
people. In my perspective, that tactical combat casualty care we're talking about, not only how do they
use that, which is essentially how to treat somebody in the battlefield when you're still being attacked,
how to take care of them in different phases of the battle, but also what to do further down the line and
how to become a leader to train other people in your country how to do this.
( 17:59 ):
And so we're doing essentially the pay it forward model of training people that can then go back to their
country and train more people. And from what we've heard talking to them, they've had very good
successes of getting this implemented and getting this to their people and making sure that it's working.
( 18:14 ):
Like you mentioned, they have the comprehensive defense issue going on right now, which is essentially
the whole country is at war and the whole country is behind the war and they're all doing their part to
make sure that basically they can get it taken care of like they need to.
( 18:30 ):
What I tell people here in the US is, yes, I do teach tactical combat casualty care to NATO special forces.
At the same time, part of that is tourniquet care, making sure which is Stop the Bleed, which is a
program here in the United States. And unfortunately here in the US with the shooting incidents that
have happened at a rapid pace over the last few years, that's becoming more and more realistic. And we
actually did a story pre - pandemic at a school in, I think it was Georgia, forgive me if I get the wrong
state, but I think it was Georgia, where they are teaching the students how to stop a bleed, which is in
my life, I never would've thought that would happen, but -

Margaret Flinter ( 19:06 ):
It's become part of our standard first responder training.

Dr. John Torres ( 19:09 ):
It's unfortunately a reality of what needs to happen, so.

Mark Masselli ( 19:11 ):
Speaking of leaders, you are somebody who's traveled to Central and South America on humanitarian
trips, but you also have interest in the South Pole. And maybe you could tell people, I mean you're a
globalist, somebody who really understands the value of everybody in every location. But how did the
South Pole happen?

Dr. John Torres ( 19:30 ):
The South Pole, so it was called Operation Ice Cube. It was with the Air National Guard, and they just
thought that was a catchy name. And it was, to be honest, I can't even remember what it stands for, but
you go down there. I was a flight surgeon in the Air Force, and so I went down there as a flight surgeon
to McMurdo, which is the base we have on the continent down there. And McMurdo has about a
thousand people and probably 200 or 300 of those are military, including flyers. They bring C - 130s in
there and they bring C - 17s in there and then they pull them out. This is during their summer months and
it's only a very short time period.

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( 20:00 ):
The issue is the way it works in flight medicine and the way it works when you're flying, and I was on
both sides of that coin because I was a pilot and then became a flight surgeon, the doctor for the pilots,
is if you become sick, only a flight surgeon can release you from that and let you go back to flying status.
And so because of that stipulation, and it's a very good stipulation because we're trained in medicine
that could be taking place at altitude, which is different.
( 20:22 ):
So because of that stipulation, they have to have a flight surgeon on the continent in case one of their
flight crews gets sick. Anybody can keep them off from flying. But as a flight doc, I was the only one that
could actually put them back on flying status.
( 20:33 ):
So we would go down there for that. Since we were there, they said, "Okay, we're going to get other
things for you to do as well so you're not just sitting around." And so we worked our shifts in the clinic
they have there, it's a 24/7 urgent care/ER kind of clinic they have there. So we would work our shifts
there day and night. And my other responsibility was evacuations out of the South Pole.
( 20:52 ):
And so I ended up, I was there about 15 hours and I was working, there's a two - day transition between
you and the flight surgeon who's leaving. They talked to you about the systems and how the computer
works and where all the medicines are and blah, blah, blah, good stuff.
( 21:05 ):
And 15 hours after I was there, we were in the cafeteria and somebody came in and said, "Hey, we got
HAPE, which is High Altitude Pulmonary Edema, HAPE at the South Pole, needs evac, emergency
evacuation. Plane's leaving in 10 minutes." And they looked at the other flight doc who was there and
he said, "I'm leaving tomorrow. I don't want to go to the South Pole. You want to go?" I'm like, "I'll go."
( 21:26 ):
And so I went to the South Pole and essentially what we do is you take the C - 130 down there. It's so cold
in the South Pole that they can't stop the engines because the oil will freeze.

Mark Masselli ( 21:35 ):
Will freeze.

Dr. John Torres ( 21:36 ):
And so they have to keep it running. And so while they keep it running, you go and you get the patient
and the patient had high altitude pulmonary edema, was very sick, brought him onto the airplane,
ended up evacuating him. The cure for high altitude pulmonary edema is getting down to low altitude.
McMurdo's at sea level. And the thing most people don't realize is the South Pole's about 9,000 to
10,000 feet. It's very high altitude.
( 21:55 ):
And so I did that one and then about two weeks later I had to do a second evacuation out of the South
Pole. And so I got to go there twice, which is interesting. It's very, very remote location obviously, very
small. There's probably 80 people there all in that research station. But it's very unique situation.

Mark Masselli ( 21:55 ):

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It's important.
Dr. John Torres ( 22:11 ):
It's very important and a unique situation. I'm glad to have been there.
Margaret Flinter ( 22:14 ):
I can't imagine the conversations in your household, the kind of honey, what did you do today
questions.
Mark Masselli ( 22:19 ):
Well, I was -
Margaret Flinter ( 22:20 ):
[inaudible 00:22:20].
Dr. John Torres ( 22:21 ):
The funny part is I got to give kudos to my wife, Linda, because about, and this is I think pre - pandemic,
there was somebody, or it might've been after pandemic, but there was somebody that had to get
evacuated. I think this was in the last year or so, had to get evacuated from the South Pole. I can't
remember who it was, but it was a scientist or celebrity or somebody had to get evacuated from the
South Pole.
( 22:40 ):
So we were doing a story and I was about to go on MSNBC talking about it. And my wife texted me real
quick. She goes, "Don't forget. You went to the South Pole." And I was like, "Oh yeah, I forgot." I don't
know how you can forget that, but I did. And so I told them. They're like, "Holy god, do you have
pictures?" And she was able to send some pictures real quick. So put them on about my time down
there. But interesting.
Margaret Flinter ( 22:58 ):
Well, turning to a different page in your varied career, you have a book, Dr. Disaster's Guide to Surviving
Everything -
Dr. John Torres ( 23:06 ):
Happy to bring it shamelessly.
Margaret Flinter ( 23:09 ):
Essential Advice for any Situation Life Throws Your Way. And this is kind of a remarkable book that gives
advice on everything from what to do in an airplane, maybe where you should sit to increase your
chances of getting out. But also what you should do when you walk into a public space, perhaps like a
mall.
( 23:24 ):

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And as Mark and I were talking, we're hearing this even from staff in health care organizations. I'm sure
in the emergency room you hear it. You hear it in primary care centers. How do I protect myself? What
do I need to know?

Dr. John Torres ( 23:35 ):
Exactly.

Margaret Flinter ( 23:36 ):
What's your advice on that? Both people at large and maybe a little bit specifically to people in health
care because the news, like the schools has certainly been full of instances.

Dr. John Torres ( 23:44 ):
And it's happening. And talking to my compatriots in the health care industry, especially in the
emergency room, regardless of where you are in a staff, a tech, a nurse, a PA, a nurse practitioner or
doctor, there's that violence factor that's always sitting in the back of your mind going, "Is something
going to happen?" And throughout my career in the ER, there's patients that have taken swings at me
and there's patients that have been violent, but it was very rare, not so much anymore now, and there's
a lot of anger when they get in there.
( 24:08 ):
So as my wife who also, I'll give her kudos to this, she always had this expression, she's a counselor, she
always has this expression, "The outward expression of fear is anger." And so oftentimes, and I would
tell people like the staff I was working with, "Hey, if they're angry, it could be because they're afraid of
something. They're afraid of dying. They're afraid of this illness they have. They're afraid of you giving
them some bad news." And so just remember that, number one. But also number two, protect yourself
and always be aware of what's going on. And regardless of what situation you are in life, and one of the
things I always bring up in a book is my family jokes around, "Keep your head on a swivel."
( 24:41 ):
And that doesn't mean you constantly have to strain your neck and next day you're sore. But just always
understand your surroundings and nothing ... It doesn't surprise me, but I always sit there going, "They
shouldn't be doing that." There's people walking down the street on their cell phones, texting, and
they're in the middle of an area that might be a little bit sketchy, but they're not paying attention. And
it's like it's easy for somebody to come up behind them. It's easier ... In the ER if you're not paying
attention and you're doing the work you need to be doing but you're not having that third eye paying
attention there, things could happen.
( 25:09 ):
So in the emergency room, I always tell them a couple of things. And we were taught this when I was a
student and when I was a resident is number one, never wear a tie because that's something they could
just grab and use. Number two, always give them an exit. And so if I was hearing the doors there, if you
want to run, I'm not the guy to stop you. I'm not going to get in your way because that, between me and
you, it's violence. So you got to be careful.
( 25:30 ):
And just keep an eye on yourself and just have that help always around too in case you need it. Most of
the hospitals are set up where they have code words they can use if somebody needs help and so it's
good.

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Mark Masselli ( 25:40 ):
Well, in addition for our listeners to read this book, Dr. Disaster's Guide to Surviving Everything, thinking
about consumers and how they're digesting information and what advice you have for them about how
to select amongst all the things. I think we started out, "Hey, I had three patients, worked on two of
them and everybody says I can use it." But what's some advice for your listeners as well who really know
that you've curated the information but people are grabbing it from all sorts of places?

Dr. John Torres ( 26:13 ):
So a couple of things. And one is try to find those trusted sources. And there are some trusted sources
out there. I know a lot of people often don't trust the government, but they do give out some
information. Part of the reason for the miscommunication is because their information, especially the
CDC and the FDA, their information is very science - based and science - founded, and so they can't really
change your information much unless that science changes, whereas other people can be more
freewheeling as far as this is what I think, or this is my opinion. They don't do that. They give sound
information. So if you're getting it from those sources, take some solace in the fact that it's very good
sound information you're getting on. Those are good sources.
( 26:49 ):
And then look at other sources. Large hospital systems have great sources of information. The different
colleges, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Society, the American College of
Cardiology, those guys have great, great sources of information. They're fantastic. And then just kind of
cultivate the people that you've listened to.
( 27:08 ):
I would lean more towards people who have expertise in that area, who have either science or medicine
backgrounds and they understand it versus people who are just popular because they're influencers or
on a talk show and they have their opinions of things, but look at that.
( 27:23 ):
On top of that, if you do get information, whether it's from the CDC, whether it's from me, whether it's
from social media, second check that, third check it. Just look at other sources. And if you get something
from a source you think might be a little questionable, look at a sound source and then look at a second
sound source and make sure you get that information.
( 27:40 ):
And one thing, when my kids were growing up, I used to always teach them. And I used it throughout
life a lot, is I always use this question of does that make sense. When you talk to somebody, does that
make sense? And if the answer is yes, then great. If the answer is, I don't know or questionable or no,
then don't go that route.
( 27:59 ):
We all have that gut feeling and you just look at something and you go, "Does it make sense that they
put microchips in vaccines? Why would the government do that? That doesn't make sense. Does it make
sense that they would put magnets in there?"

Margaret Flinter ( 28:11 ):
We laugh, but other people don't laugh.

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Dr. John Torres ( 28:12 ):
No, they don't. But I'm just saying, using that doesn't make sense that they put microchips in there when
they can track you by your cell phone anyway. They don't need microchips. Again, using that, and not to
ridicule people, but using that does that make sense then when you hear something like that, and then
using that kind of gut feeling of, okay, let me check deeper and see if that really could come to fruition.

Mark Masselli ( 28:33 ):
Great advice.

Margaret Flinter ( 28:34 ):
I want to go back to your role as a physician and what you see particularly in the emergency room
setting. And I know here at this wonderful conference, there's going to be a session on healing the
healer, overcoming burnout. We hear a lot about moral injury, which within health care has come to
mean something to people who are at the front lines. What are you seeing?
( 28:55 ):
I think you're primarily in the emergency setting, but you're confronted with both the things that you
can fix, the traumatic injury, the car injury. Hopefully you can fix it. But also the chronic psychiatric
patient who has nowhere to go, the person who's sleeping on the streets, the individuals who just have
so much stacked against them, very hard for emergency room people to respond.
( 29:17 ):
What are you seeing in terms of helpful strategies? What do people need? What do they need us to
know about what's going on?

Dr. John Torres ( 29:23 ):
It was interesting, I was just talking with a couple of doctors yesterday about this. And it's one of those
things that a lot of times people say, "Wow, there's that burnout because you're working so hard and
you're doing stuff." And the consensus was we've always worked hard. Medicine is just that kind of -

Margaret Flinter ( 29:23 ):
Is always very stressful.

Dr. John Torres ( 29:36 ):
Yeah. Medicine is just that kind of field where it's stressful, you work hard, long hours, and you're happy
to go back and do it again. You're happy to keep doing it because you're making progress, you're helping
people out, the people that you can't help, you're trying to make as comfortable as possible and you're
basically taking care of people.
( 29:51 ):
What comes into that equation are the things that you can't handle, that you don't have any power
over. And part of that's the hospital administration, part of that's the long waiting periods in the ER
before they get upstairs. Part of that is the where do you send people that might have psychiatric issues
when there are no psychiatric centers to send them to? Where do you send the homeless other than out
on the street when they need ... One of the big things is let's say they had surgery done. They're going to
need a week or so of recovery. You can't recover on the street in a tent under a bridge. Where do you
send them? You don't.

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( 30:24 ):
So that starts wearing on you and that starts getting you that injury you're talking about, that moral
injury of like, I'm trying to take care of my patients as best I can, but I'm not doing all that they need
because of these other issues that are happening peripherally that I don't have any control over.
( 30:37 ):
And like I said, doctors, nurses, techs, we all have worked hard our whole careers and we knew that
coming in because that's what you do in med school and that's what you do in residency. I mean, you
work unbelievably hard, long hours, but you're making headway. It's when you stop making that
headway and you're butting your head against the wall, trying to get things taken care of that aren't
moving in a direction that they need to move in, that you start getting that that it starts impacting you
emotionally.
Mark Masselli ( 31:01 ):
Speaking of headway, we're here at the Aspen Institute Ideas on Health. What a great opportunity -
Dr. John Torres ( 31:06 ):
This is fantastic -
Mark Masselli ( 31:06 ):
... to move the conversation forward. What are you picking up here? And I should just remind people
this is not a green screen.
Dr. John Torres ( 31:13 ):
No. That's amazing.
Mark Masselli ( 31:13 ):
Dr. John and I will be running back there later just to show that it's not a green screen. But just
fascinating people here. I also know that you are NBC's been a big sponsor and a facilitator here, but tell
our listeners a little bit about the excitement that's brimming here.
Dr. John Torres ( 31:32 ):
Yeah. And this is a fantastic one. This is my eighth year being here and I love coming here. And the main
reason is because you see all the people that are either doing the state - of - the - art research or they're
the funders for that research or they're the policymakers behind all that, and they're the ones that are
moving it in a certain direction and hopefully in a direction you want it to go in.
( 31:50 ):
So part of what happens here are people making those decisions and making those contacts as to what
do we want to do moving forward and getting ideas. And that's the idea. This is the idea of the festival,
which is great. They get ideas just talking to people.
( 32:02 ):
And as opposed to most things where you talk to the head of HHS or you talk to the head of the FDA or
you talk to the head of the CDC and they're in their official capacity where they're doing their official

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thing and they have to give the official answer, here they open up a little bit and they're able to do
things more casually.
( 32:19 ):
And it's very common to be having a coffee with somebody, and there's coffee distributors all over a
campus here. You have a coffee with somebody and you're talking to them and the conversation is
usually, "So what do you do? What do you do?" "I'm a physician. I'm the medical correspondent for the
NBC." "Oh yeah, I'm the head of the FDA.". "Okay." "Okay, great. Let's see if we can come up with a
story. Let's see if we can come up with an idea." Or, "I'm head of the Commonwealth Fund." This just
great fund that funds a lot of research and studies and just talking to them, it's like, "Here's the things
we're looking at going forward. What kind of ideas do you have? And do you have any thoughts about
how we could get better coverage for this on TV? Yeah, great." And so you come up with a lot of ideas.
( 32:55 ):
And I think the beauty behind the Aspen festivals here is it lets people come in a very casual
environment. The funny thing is, the first year I came here, I was living in New York and I came in my suit
and my tie, my fancy suit with my nice shoes, my tie and everything, and I was going to moderate a
panel. And I showed up for the panel. They're like, "What are you doing? Who are you?" Like, take the
tie off, throw the jacket out, kind of thing. And then the next year I realized it's very casual environment.
( 33:21 ):
So I tell the people I'm on the panel with when I'm moderating it, we do a pre - interview. I said, "Number
one, business casual or less type clothes. You're going to have a great time here. Just have fun doing
this. And we get out a lot of good information."
Margaret Flinter ( 33:21 ):
Great.
Mark Masselli ( 33:33 ):
Margaret, we have been honored to -
Margaret Flinter ( 33:33 ):
We couldn't agree with you more on that one. One night last night we met more people, many of whom
we've interviewed on the show, many of whom we follow actively and others we've just admired from a
distance.
Dr. John Torres ( 33:44 ):
Oh yeah, isn't it amazing?
Margaret Flinter ( 33:45 ):
Wonderful to be here. Dr. John, such a pleasure to make your acquittance.
Dr. John Torres ( 33:48 ):
Absolutely. You bet.
Margaret Flinter ( 33:48 ):

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To learn more -
Dr. John Torres ( 33:48 ):
Well, thank you -
Margaret Flinter ( 33:49 ):
... about your work and to bring it out to our listeners. And to all of our listeners or viewers, what a
pleasure for us to join you from Aspen, from the Festival of Ideas Health. And you can always learn more
about Conversations on Health Care by going to chcradio.com.
( 34:04 ):
Dr. John, thanks. We look forward -
Dr. John Torres ( 34:04 ):
Thank you -
Margaret Flinter ( 34:04 ):
... to getting to know you.
Dr. John Torres ( 34:06 ):
Absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Margaret Flinter ( 34:06 ):
Really appreciate it.
Dr. John Torres ( 34:06 ):
All right.
Margaret Flinter ( 34:13 ):
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Inc. The views expressed by guests are their own, and they do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
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